tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post2654348188338883959..comments2024-03-26T16:31:13.865-07:00Comments on Mark Lawrence: That book with all the rape ...Mark Lawrencehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16877925828353073272noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-40925345050524492272023-09-01T03:47:54.034-07:002023-09-01T03:47:54.034-07:00it's still getting hits and discussions 11+ ye...it's still getting hits and discussions 11+ years later :DMark Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16877925828353073272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-15366764685182157912023-02-21T20:31:08.735-08:002023-02-21T20:31:08.735-08:00Rape is just one of those sensitive topics that ca...Rape is just one of those sensitive topics that can make or break a book, but yeah, it definitely seems excessive to call it a rape fest. It did rub me a little wrong that Sim is sexually abused multiple times (especially considering how Jorg comments on how feminine he is and that it's "dangerous business" to look like him) but at the same time, as someone who's been a victim of s/a, I adored Sim's character and it was extremely cathartic to read about the aftermath.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-46147825548310664832020-10-09T05:46:27.871-07:002020-10-09T05:46:27.871-07:00"It is, however, slightly disingenuous to sug..."It is, however, slightly disingenuous to suggest, as in the comments above, that the two quotes are the only words about rape in the book."<br /><br />It's hugely disingenuous to suggest I suggested that :DMark Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16877925828353073272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-91008518978056820792020-09-23T07:57:37.977-07:002020-09-23T07:57:37.977-07:00I know I'm late to the discussion but I've...I know I'm late to the discussion but I've only just started reading the book. I'm just up to chapter 7 and both of the quotes you use here have already occurred, so it is perhaps understandable that they might predominate in the minds of those who decide early on that they don't like where the book is headed. I'm currently at the point of being uncertain whether to continue.<br /><br />I think part of the problem here is precisely the lack of detail. In Donaldson's work you get a more substantial description of the rape, allowing the reader a full grasp of the horror of the moment. In PoT the rape of the farmer's daughters is casually dismissed as a fairly trivial event with a fairly strong implication that this is not an isolated event. It is not a plot device, as seems to be the view of some reviewers but rather a moment of establishing character.<br /><br />It is, however, slightly disingenuous to suggest, as in the comments above, that the two quotes are the only words about rape in the book. Accompanying the scene with the farmer's daughters are the following:<br /><br />"'...Me, I'm going to find a farmer's daughter or three, before the others use them all up'"<br /><br />"'Do you have daughters, farmer? Hiding in the cellar maybe? Old Rike will sniff them out.'"<br /><br />"'Who'd be a farmer's daughter?'"<br /><br />"'Brother Rike does enjoy his simple pleasures'"<br /><br />"'You weren't above those simple pleasures yourself, Brother Jorg'.<br />I couldn't argue there. 'How old are you?' that fat farmer had wanted to know. Old enough to pay a call on his daughters...[the quoted scene.]...Though I don't suppose either of them was quiet when the fire reached them."<br /><br />And the scene with a prostitute that gets quoted by Anonymous on 24 November 2011 may not be a rape scene but it serves as a callback to the rape scene with the burning. "...or not having to finish up before the flames take hold of the building. And the willingness! That was new too..." <br />There is the implication that Jorg is quite used to unwilling sexual partners.<br /><br />That said, this is still not enough, unless there is more to come, to describe the book as 'rapey' but it is certainly violent and the characters nihilistic. As with the rape, the violence so far is not so much graphically described as casually dismissed.<br /><br />I generally like to be able to find something to like about a novel's protagonist(s) but I'm not sure that this will be possible with Jorg and his crew. I'll probably try to go on a few more chapters and then make a decision on whether to continue further.Malc Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12818660927160546070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-38959235168801813742016-06-27T07:49:11.771-07:002016-06-27T07:49:11.771-07:00This book has characters with no regard for human ...This book has characters with no regard for human life, they might kill their own road-Brothers over a bad temper, practice torture, sacrifice tens of hundreds of bystanders just because it's convenient, quicker to draw a sword than to simply talk it out, and this is exactly what makes the series more enjoyable. The main protagonist regards his fellow humans as mere pieces on a chess board, who wouldn't put a pawn to flames just to see what color will the smoke be? It would be out of character for him, or his brothers not to rape over some ethical considerations.<br />It is an R rated book, so a little rape (or a lot for that matter) is expected. If the R rating didn't scare you off, and you stomached the first pages of burning down a village, murdering it's leader, finishing off the injured and piling decapitated heads in a cart, you can probably tolerate a few mentions of rape.<br />I find it amusing that some people tolerate all the mass-murder and torture present in the book, and draw the line at rape.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-79621101401768190102016-01-10T03:31:22.095-08:002016-01-10T03:31:22.095-08:00I suspect that the difference is the attackers don...I suspect that the difference is the attackers don't think they can damage GRRM's career!<br /><br />This all started on day 1 of my first book being published, when I was a very soft target. Fortunately I think it misfired and the publicity actually helped me a lot.Mark Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16877925828353073272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-59618369011070215942016-01-09T23:44:52.807-08:002016-01-09T23:44:52.807-08:00If you have a problem with this but not game of th...If you have a problem with this but not game of thrones, you're barking up the wrong tree. <br />Maynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-28682404740375838912015-10-25T08:41:56.262-07:002015-10-25T08:41:56.262-07:00Fuck the rape, it shouldn't be addressed that ...Fuck the rape, it shouldn't be addressed that much, but in the end it was probably a good thing (for the author) as it helped promote the book, which is not all that, for me anyway.Alexandrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08588460321748006582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-41471960685659418652014-09-29T08:48:54.665-07:002014-09-29T08:48:54.665-07:00I bet all the same people are watching Outlander, ...I bet all the same people are watching Outlander, (seen at least three attempted rapes so far) or loved seeing The Snake in GOT order young men to stay behind and join the orgies. It's just an easy attack point for people who don't like the book or who want to jump on their moral high horse but are too lazy to just finish the book and critique it properly. Charilehttp://www.areadingmachine.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-18859300591767359422014-09-29T08:32:09.408-07:002014-09-29T08:32:09.408-07:00I like how so many people get so worked up about t...I like how so many people get so worked up about two extremly mild scenes. The one with Jorg's mom could even be played of as something else. Seriously dont get these people. (all the ones having a fit)<br />But in the new book from Brent Weeks, theres about 5 scenes where a man gets his junk mutilated and nobody so much as bats an eye. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-53510862948517951032014-05-25T19:12:41.759-07:002014-05-25T19:12:41.759-07:00I just finished all 3 books in a couple of weeks a...I just finished all 3 books in a couple of weeks and came across this while looking for info on the Red Queen series - sorry to dredge up an old post!<br /><br />After reading a lot of Abercrombie, Martin and a whole slew of other authors I am flabbergasted at the hoo-ha regarding Prince/King/Emperor's supposed fixation with rape. I can't help but think these people haven't read the books, or perhaps the sly, sidelong portrayal of such a "fact-of-life" is what really stuck with them. I don't think I have been so effected by a series of books - I have been pestering my husband to read them since I was halfway through Prince so we could talk about it! I don't think it is the violence, or the rape or the "world gone to sh*t" portrayal - for me it seems most to be that you find yourself hoping that Jorg actually triumphs, and absolutely disgusted with yourself a heartbeat later for so hoping.<br /><br />Please, for the sake of everyone who loves your work, keep doing what you do best and don't be discouraged by the internet warriors and all of the "butt hurt critics" (so eloquently named by a commentor earlier) who have difficulty stringing together a coherent email, let alone a novel.<br /><br />I can't wait until Prince of Fools!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-44456914954376881642014-03-22T15:17:59.816-07:002014-03-22T15:17:59.816-07:00This must be really frustrating to have this false...This must be really frustrating to have this false perception about your book. It's quite unfair.<br /><br />Have these folks not read Thomas Covenant? I mean, if one is going to label things "Rapey" at least get it right.<br /><br />Furthermore, in a medieval or post-apocalyptic setting one cannot exactly expect the rule of law. Bad things will happen. <br /><br />If a writer doesn't want to write a Dungeons and Dragons, light-hearted romp in which these truths are glossed over, they should be able to do so. Isn't the whole point of these settings is to remind us what was and what will be if the lights ever go out?<br /><br />I can only speculate (and I love to speculate) is that your book gets this bad rap because the mention of rape happens early, and it is done in a way that might work too well. Peoples' brains fill in the off scene rape with more detail than you can ever write.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11157219766529936985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-14137058843826293282013-12-01T05:11:58.758-08:002013-12-01T05:11:58.758-08:00Oh please, some people will protest anything, anyo...Oh please, some people will protest anything, anyone who considers Jorg's (Lawrence's) rather tame and unfocused description, and believes this to be a good reason not to ride the Broken Empire, is well advised to stay well away from anyone like George R Martin, Terry Goodkind, Bernard Cornwell or Brent Weeks (and kinda Jim Butcher but his setting is way different so its a bit iffy), all writers in the same relative genre as Mark, and all of fairly similar quality (above and beyond excellent) and their descriptions of rape are sometimes actually integral to the plot or story or a character, rather than Mark's sideglance at the rather common aftermath of what a rather rutheless bandit leader would do. I think it is simply more "shocking to reviewers as they see what they believe to be a slightly dark teen's book description inside the cover, perhaps they were expecting a medieval Artemis Fowl book? It ain't a kids book folks, sorry. This here is good, proper, genuine, adult, fantasy-sci-fi literature ladies and gentlemen (reading in a texas auctioneer's drawl is optional but advised). It's not unnecessary, it shouldn't be glorified but its not, it's a glance at the desensitization in the world and simply a part of the circumstances. Just read it, accept it, turn the page and continue on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-72736479588320940552013-09-20T18:51:10.385-07:002013-09-20T18:51:10.385-07:00The reason I think that a lot of people find the r...The reason I think that a lot of people find the rape scene problematic or jarring isn't so much because it's particular vivid or prominent. There are far more descriptive rape scenes in a lot of books that don't raise any eyebrows. The problematic phrase is<br /><br />"<b><i>you'd give</i></b> a twist here or there just to check she hadn't died of fright."<br /><br />It's jarring because it almost breaks the fourth wall to include the reader in the first person POV in the middle of the rape. If you had written it "I gave a twist here or there just to check..." you probably would have gotten a whimper instead of all the hype about it that you are now. But by saying "You'd" - who is Jorg referring to? The reader. So Jorg is saying that I as the reader would give a twist here or there - Uh...I most certainly would not be participating in this act at all thank you very much. On the other hand, the way you've put it has more impact as far as bringing Jorg's nature across - but it explains why it's struck such a nerve I think.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17691723541381426749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-7705882246971078662013-09-03T05:59:21.706-07:002013-09-03T05:59:21.706-07:00I have read and enjoyed all three books and can ho...I have read and enjoyed all three books and can honestly say I had forgot about the rape scene in prince of thorns until I saw this. That's how much of it there is. It aids in setting up the characteristics of jorg as a anti hero but is not crucial to the story. There is so much story this very minor part of the books is not what I remember most.clairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01353864241401105288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-80159472682795595452013-07-26T12:50:51.606-07:002013-07-26T12:50:51.606-07:00Only yesterday on twitter somebody described the b...Only yesterday on twitter somebody described the book as a 'rape-fest'. Testimony to the enduring power of stupid. Mark Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16877925828353073272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-32416972788476321262013-07-26T12:38:41.524-07:002013-07-26T12:38:41.524-07:00I'm now going to refer to this book as "t...I'm now going to refer to this book as "the book with all the door porn".Anastasianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-29164263899285463782013-07-15T00:14:12.854-07:002013-07-15T00:14:12.854-07:00This reply is really what this post is all about.
...This reply is really what this post is all about.<br /><br />"I believe there are far more references to rape"<br /><br />You believe this... but it isn't true.<br /><br />"There are no scenes but it is assumed that that is what is going on"<br /><br />You can assume what you like, but with no words to that effect... this isn't so very different from the reviewer who complained about the spaceship.<br /><br />You can - if you want - assume that rape occurs in every book where there are wars and conflict. But it would hardly be fair to call every war book 'the book with all the rape'.Mark Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16877925828353073272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-73234698556641241222013-07-14T17:03:14.236-07:002013-07-14T17:03:14.236-07:00Really enjoyed this book. I did find the violence ...Really enjoyed this book. I did find the violence and evilness shocking but I assume that was the intent. I believe there are far more references to rape by some of Jorge's brothers after every town they conquer. There are no scenes but it is assumed that that is what is going on, no?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-79902686353237773862013-05-24T11:07:39.682-07:002013-05-24T11:07:39.682-07:00You've got to paint a picture of a cold, harsh...You've got to paint a picture of a cold, harsh world, and a 13-year old who's torn up both physically and mentally. People at 12 were giving birth back then, and consummating marriages by giving their wives and bit of the old in-out on their wedding night at 12,13. Surely rape and violence are a must in such a world, you're not writing children's books here. You're genuinely trying to paint a picture of a world full of evil bastards. You're doing a great job, and you justify any use of violence because your writing is decent. Concentrate on your writing, don't give a shit about "sensitive content". You should open your next work with a mass-rape scene.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-31296150983984271382013-04-07T06:37:21.070-07:002013-04-07T06:37:21.070-07:00I think Mark said something along these lines earl...I think Mark said something along these lines earlier but I honestly don't resent what these people think of the story and I'll admit that a part of me thinks they're idiotic for panning a book over one little detail that's pretty fecking irrelevant to the entire story but yeah I don't get why they're lifeless enough to sit down and rave about how much they hate some book they've clearly barely even read.<br /><br />I'll use an example; there's a tv series called Arrow that I somewhat dislike cos of the writing but I won't go any further however when random people ask me about Arrow; I just say I'm not too into it cos they'll just take it as my "personal preference", I mean why on Earth would you sit down in front of a PC or Mac or what have you or go out somewhere and rave on about how much you hate something you barely know jack about? <br /><br />People have different preferences, if you dislike something; just bloody move on. There's no need to ruin a show, movie or book's popularity cos you disliked what you saw in the first 20 pages or the first episode or first five minutes of a movie.<br /><br />I think we've just built up this weird little era where everybody's a butt hurt critic for some odd reason.Awale Ismailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15197677144409342318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-1270513511195587642013-03-20T18:01:30.974-07:002013-03-20T18:01:30.974-07:00Donaldson provides all of the information and all ...Donaldson provides all of the information and all of the tools to work out Covenants mindset, to see why he might have done what he had done. Who among us could say they have never done something in a dream that they would not do in real life. While the rape is still not acceptable it is a tool in this case, It shapes the events of The Land for thousands of thousands of years to come. You state that "Future earth is kind of a hellhole. "The land" is a place of wonder and beauty". This is a significant contrast, Jorg went from being loved and treasured by his mother to alone in a hellhole, Covenant went from being alone in a hellhole of despair and disease to loved and treasured in a place of beauty. <br /><br />I beg you, do not discard Lord Fouls bane because of this event, it's a key event. I think the differences between the two are that Mr. Lawrence's scenes were to provide a skeleton view on what future earth is like, while they might be the only such events that are mentioned in the book it is clear from the context that it is something that happens regularly around future earth, much as the same thing is made clear in ASOIAF (i'd like to be clear here that i love both series and think they are wonderful books) where as in Donaldson's work it is a key defining event, and forcing the reader to suffer through it puts a context on what Covenant, Lena, Trell and Atiaran go through over the years that pass in the landAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00053762354970462291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-56105386763299853622013-03-20T18:01:06.557-07:002013-03-20T18:01:06.557-07:00My only complaint about what you have said is that...My only complaint about what you have said is that you are one of far too many people who views the covenant books through the light of a single scene, in fact you are very much viewing Covenant and LFB in the same way as the critics which you are complaining about. While the rape in LFB is obviously hideous it's obvious that it is designed to 'cause the reader to loathe covenant in much the same was as he loathes himself and becomes a key point in the later books. To use similar words to Mr Lawrence (who's books I love) the rape scene takes up less than a page in a series of books which is now rapidly approaching almost 10,000 pages. You describe Covenant as a "a self loathing leprous freak who hates and loves only himself." Firstly if you had actually paid attention to Covenants history you might begin to understand that A) he loves far more than himself and B) his entire character has been twisted and shaped by people viewing him as a "Leprous freak". Finally C) Covenant does not believe that what is happening is truly happening to him, hence his name in The Land, "The Unbeliever"<br /><br />A renowned and successful writer with a loving wife and a young son who comes down with leprosy, he has gone from being beloved of all to being reviled and hated, his wife has left him and taken his young son with her making it clear that Covenant will not be permitted to ever see his son again, let alone to live with him. He is reviled by those in town and deprived of all human contact but the torment and assaults by those who wish nothing more than for him to leave this mortal coil, All the while knowing that this will never change that his disease cannot be treated. Alone and without hope, left alone with nothing but his despair. All of a sudden after a particularly traumatic assault by his peers whereby a razor blade hidden in a bun cuts his mouth, a particularly dangerous event for a leper, He cleans his wounds, yet another reminder of the hate borne him by his fellow man. He receives a phone call and as he answers and hears the voice of his wife, the woman he loved, the woman who abandoned him. He falls. He bangs his head. He finds himself elsewhere. As if a dream in his unconsciousness he hears a voice, the voice of Lord Foul, Despair incarnate, telling him that he, Lord Foul, will destroy The Land. Believing, justifiably, that this is a dream he encounters a young girl Lena who mystically cures his illness, an illness that he KNOWS to be incurable, an illness that he knows will haunt and torment him until the day he dies. This merely reinforces his belief that he is in a dream. He's overwhelmed, he has senses again, he can feel the air and the sun on his skin and he is taken to a place where he is flooded with human contact, human contact that is not harsh or attempting to punish him for being near. It's as if his dreams are come true, or more correctly it's as if he's in a dream in which all his hopes have come true. He has spent so long in his despair and in his loneliness that were he not in a mystical land then it would still seem a dream, but the aura of a dream is only reinforced that he is somewhere that cannot exist in his worldview. He is sent off alone with Lena to travel to Lord's keep, and all of the information that he is being fed is merely reinforcing the belief that he stands in a dream. As he renounces once again Lena's statement that The Land is real he is horrified by the thought that he might be going crazy, that the only part of him that was not rotting due to the disease, his mind, is now working against him. He, in a fit of anger rapes Lena. The reader is horrified, Covenant is horrified that he is capable of such a thing. but it is still just a dream to him.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00053762354970462291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-1259248028555824932013-01-22T10:23:20.310-08:002013-01-22T10:23:20.310-08:00"There is no such thing as a moral or an immo..."There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all.” Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray.<br />Of course I would not read this book to my 5 year old son, but it strikes me that the glorious 21st century still seems to be struggling with a fundamental literary principle.<br />GaiaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-38728835060521638212012-12-28T08:18:05.464-08:002012-12-28T08:18:05.464-08:00I'm not surprised, months later, this piece is...I'm not surprised, months later, this piece is still getting hits and discussion.Paul Weimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02444942522624902562noreply@blogger.com