tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post8570414115732886755..comments2024-03-26T16:31:13.865-07:00Comments on Mark Lawrence: The GRRM Step ChangeMark Lawrencehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16877925828353073272noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-11557206812311158042013-04-04T08:46:01.398-07:002013-04-04T08:46:01.398-07:00It's worth noting that SANDMAN (1988-96) preda...It's worth noting that SANDMAN (1988-96) predates A GAME OF THRONES (1996) by a fairly significant margin.Adam Whiteheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11383677312079611311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-56635130219196802282013-04-04T08:14:22.577-07:002013-04-04T08:14:22.577-07:00GRRM inherited ideals and mantles from earlier aut...GRRM inherited ideals and mantles from earlier authors. The two books that started the post-Tolkien, modern epic fantasy genre both came out in 1977 and were THE SWORD OF SHANNARA by Terry Brooks - a disposable popcorn novel - and Stephen Donaldson's LORD FOUL'S BANE, a brooding dark novel about a leper who rapes a woman two chapters in and things proceed to get grimmer from there. LORD FOUL and its five sequels - THE CHRONICLES OF THOMAS COVENANT, THE UNBELIEVER - are hugely influential in the fantasy genre, especially on GRRM, who borrowed Donaldson's rotating POV technique (from an SF work, THE GAP) for ASoIaF. Indeed, it doesn't appear to be until somewhere around 2006-07 that ASoIaF's sales finally eclipsed that of the older work.<br /><br />If we also look at what was going on in fantasy in the 1980s and 1990s, there was a major shift towards realism, sexual matters, more visceral violence and psychological studies going on before ASoIaF. Glen Cook, Tad Williams and David Gemmell were part of that loose movement and so was the excellent Paul Kearney. Cook is the master of sympathetic protagonists put into difficult positions, even the position of being the bad guys despite thier personal morals. Even an author sometimes said to be part of the post-GRRM movement, JV Jones, actually got her first two novels out before A GAME OF THRONES was published.<br /><br />I think it's safe to say that GRRM publicised this step change, but as an evolutionary part of it and as a reflection of the direction fantasy was taking already. He's even said that two such authors, Williams and Donaldson, were a direct influence on ASoIaF. The reasons for GRRM's individual success may be ascribed to a combination of those gritty/dark elements and his employment of traditional fantasy furniture, such as good characters, maps, glossaries, large battles etc.Adam Whiteheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11383677312079611311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-32361233336767473332013-03-30T10:54:18.800-07:002013-03-30T10:54:18.800-07:00Too busy writing, mate!Too busy writing, mate!Elspeth Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00664067112502510349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-37760217550805689692013-03-30T07:46:26.304-07:002013-03-30T07:46:26.304-07:00I think Gaiman was very aware of Martin's work...I think Gaiman was very aware of Martin's work. I'm sure I read that Gaiman tried to get a character into one of Martin's collaborations (an early version of Dream IIRC) but was turned down (a rejection GRRM had later opportunity to regret!)Mark Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16877925828353073272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-21290257522543172212013-03-30T07:41:47.139-07:002013-03-30T07:41:47.139-07:00Well for Swords and Sorcery sure. I think 'fan...Well for Swords and Sorcery sure. I think 'fantasy' is too broad a term. GRRM's affect on the likes of Kelly Link, Terry Pratchett or Neil Gaiman would be minimal I'd guess<br /><br /><br />Nearly Headless Ned.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-19785069234164508602013-03-30T07:15:11.879-07:002013-03-30T07:15:11.879-07:00I have to admit; I didn't care for The Game of...I have to admit; I didn't care for The Game of Thrones. It came off as too long and uneventful. But I completely understand your point about the character development. Yourself, Brent Weeks, Peter V. Brett and Joe Abercrombie all do a fantastic job of creating characters and a world that just feel real. Thank you.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00504332754318144550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-3837853126825600832013-03-30T07:03:27.139-07:002013-03-30T07:03:27.139-07:00I think what GRRM did was open this aspect of fant...I think what GRRM did was open this aspect of fantasy up to a wider audience via his huge success. There have been other authors putting real people on the page prior to this, but you had to either stumble across them or hunt them down--if you weren't reading a lot of genre, then your odds of finding them were slim. That's not to take away from GRRM's skill and writing--I had several "Whoa, shit" moments as a writer while reading, especially in the earlier books of ASOIAF--but its as much the size of the crater as the rock that caused it that helps explain at least partly the current trends in the field.Douglas Hulickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04221190213829107139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-47671532817349420462013-03-30T07:03:09.970-07:002013-03-30T07:03:09.970-07:00... but why woulnd't you read the books? ;)... but why woulnd't you read the books? ;)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00931487063738188497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-54346301204659590552013-03-30T06:42:51.701-07:002013-03-30T06:42:51.701-07:00Thanks, Mark.
I think a couple of things came tog...Thanks, Mark.<br /><br />I think a couple of things came together to help transform fantasy. Martin is as good a signpost as any, although it probably will be pointed out that other authors started doing the same thing at the same time. Martin is the clearest example of the phenomenon.<br /><br />It's my thought that Martin's sojourn in Hollywood gave him the tools to apply them to fantasy, and, lightning struck, bringing it to the attention of a lot of readers. Paul Weimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02444942522624902562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-33734749689618811482013-03-30T06:33:53.208-07:002013-03-30T06:33:53.208-07:00sure, ride the ripples :)sure, ride the ripples :)Mark Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16877925828353073272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-61787425608735283792013-03-30T03:27:24.126-07:002013-03-30T03:27:24.126-07:00Can you also be an inheritor without having read a...Can you also be an inheritor without having read any GRRM?Elspeth Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00664067112502510349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-25721569724166839092013-03-29T17:41:17.990-07:002013-03-29T17:41:17.990-07:00Martin definitely made a big impact but there were...Martin definitely made a big impact but there were rumblings of this sort of stuff before him. I'd argue that for 'real' characters, Ursula Le Guin got there first. If you read The Tombs of Atuan, it presents you with a brilliant dilemma about the priestess Tenar. Do you like her? She's an abused child, essentially, but equally she's abusive. Morally this is at a place where 'good and evil' aren't terms that really apply - you're presented with a flawed, scarred, human being not someone about whom you can make easy judgements. When the series gets to Tehanu the theme of abuse is picked up again. The book could be seen as fantasy's take on post-traumatic stress. Le Guin's focus in these books is personal, Martin's is epic but I love them both.MD Lachlanhttp://www.wrotebydogs.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-32687345832664022013-03-29T16:14:14.979-07:002013-03-29T16:14:14.979-07:00What made me instantly love GRRM when I discovered...What made me instantly love GRRM when I discovered his writing was that he provided what I had long been searching for in fantasy but could never find. I loved LOTR or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser as much as anyone, but the characters never felt fully lifelike (and they didn't need to be within the context of their stories), yet I wanted stories that were more lifelike. Martin did it, and I can reread his stories over and over again just to wallow in the delicious details of his creation.Ted Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09022309459554237650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3529725084811715233.post-18799224787034172862013-03-29T12:46:38.188-07:002013-03-29T12:46:38.188-07:00It was the Dark Tower series that brought me back ...It was the Dark Tower series that brought me back to the fantasy world. In my teens and into my twenties I would only read "important" books like Fitzgerald, etc, or Palahniuk type stuff. While these were great books my real love was fan/sci fi. After Dark Tower I found GRRM which definitely stepped up the game. After that was the Malazan books which I felt were so great it ruined other books for me. I finally found Prince of Thorns and my favorite character of all time Jorg. Please keep writing the character driven fantasy that you write, sir.@travisrgriffinnoreply@blogger.com